Stay in the video game industry

[gugesbri]

Sept 29, 2008 15:24:36 GMT -5 maverick1104 said:

Okay, there are some points to everyone's post that I agree with and then there are some posts I don't.

First off, this IS a rant (which I have be known to do sometimes), it should've been posted under that section.

Second, the way gugesbri went about this discussion was not the best way and could have been handled a little better, but I do understand his point. "Stay in the video game industry" is kinda a bad way to get your point across though.

Third, this is a JOE MAD! forum. We as fans of Joe Mad! must understand that there will be posts like this from time to time. They may not always be thought out like this one here, but this is a forum. These things occur here. As long as they're civil, I feel that there is no problem with stating your opinion.

Alright. I want to start off with my opinions with this....I totally agree that these statements are crap: "it's only a comic book" and "simply read something else". We as fans buy this book with OUR money and deserve not to be lied to and when Marvel solicits a book, it should be delivered at that date. They should NEVER solicit something without it being done. This is what happens when you do. And it is a total smack in the face of the fans. I have no problem if Joe couldn't meet his deadline. He is a busy man. It is Marvel who is responsible. To call out Joe on him being late or not is really not the case.

I personally feel that Joe's artwork felt a little bit sketchy with this series. That is not a bad thing at all and maybe what they were going for. Plus, without having inks, it can make it look sketchy/watercolor-ish. Again, not a bad thing. I feel that this series was maybe not the best for the type of artwork Joe produces. This was in my opinion an X-Men story. Not an Ultimates story. To me, his style fits the fantasy genre way better anyway.

So, with all of this said, I must say that this does effect the comic industry. Late books are really annoying and personally, if Ultimates 5 would've been late one more time I would have cancelled it and waited until the hardcover. Why should I give my money to a book that can't come out on time?

Oh, to clarify if Joe was done with the book or not you can look at posts made by Joe. You'll see that he himself said that he was finishing up a page with the Hulk on it. This was after the book was supposed to be done. Again, Marvel should not solicit it if the artist or whomever is not done. Not Joe's fault. He didn't schedule the release of this book.

Thanks for the response,
Gustavo Pabon

[mkk]

I would also like to add that its not really reasonable to compare a single piece of concept art for a videogame to an entire comic. You can't seriously expect the same level of draftsmanship when you have nearly 30 pages to do. That said, I still think Mad's art on Ultimates was fantastic, and until I see some actual proof that the delay is his fault, I think we should hold back on the finger pointing.

Maybe I'm just a Mad fanboy, but I am grateful that he has returned, even for just a little while, and I would be deeply saddened if it was another 6 - 7 years till we saw more of his work again.

[garn]

I agree mkk, mad on a bad day is still a hundred years ahead of most.

[tomtravers]

I think Joe's Ultimates work is really strong but certainly not flawless. Only Joe can say difinitivly how much effort he put into the work, but my own judgment tells me he worked his ass off and produced some really solid work while juggling many other responsibilities. I am thankful as a fan that he came back to comics and did a complete run. I don't think it was the greatest project we could have hoped for but it's still d**n cool.

As for lateness, I think special projects like this should be totally completed before they are even advertised. Especially something as small as Ultimates 3 and since Joe was involved deadline issues should have been well considered before soliciting anything.

I for one hope Joe can find a good balance between video game work and comics. I am thankful for any work he chooses to share.

[antichristian]

hey gustavo? joe is an artist. get a life.

[gugesbri]

Oct 3, 2008 1:42:19 GMT -5 antichristian said:

hey gustavo? joe is an artist. get a life.

When a person does work for themselves, they are "artists".
When they do work for a company, they are "professionals".

As a deadline graphic designer myself who works for a newspaper, I am on a strict deadline every night. My hours are from 5:00 p.m. to 12:30 p.m with an 11:00 p.m deadline. My "drop dead deadline" is 11:00 p.m. No later, and, this is how my deadline was explained to me when I first started working for the news paper:

"Gustavo, for every fifteen minutes that
you are late in delivering a job,
the newspaper looses $50,000".

So if I hold up the paper for an hour because I am late in delivering my work on time, the newspaper looses $200,000.00.
How is this possible? Because the presses are held up, trucks and truck drivers are held up and the whole production of a newspaper is being held up, meaning more money that the paper has to pay because people are standing around not doing anything waiting for one person, me to finish a job.

and,

imagine if this ever happened (which I am proud to say that in the eight years that I have been working at the paper, it has not) and I told them, hey cut me some slack, "I'm an artist".

They'll tell me, "we'll, go do your art somewhere else because you are fired".

And that's the reality that all professional artists encounter everyday.
When companies like Marvel, DC and Dark horse loose money because we artists are late and they loose readers they will think twice about using us again.

Art is art, business is business and when we loose readers, business is bad.

[DaveCummings]

Oct 3, 2008 13:53:36 GMT -5 gugesbri said:

Oct 3, 2008 1:42:19 GMT -5 antichristian said:

hey gustavo? joe is an artist. get a life.

When a person does work for themselves, they are "artists".
When they do work for a company, they are "professionals".

As a deadline graphic designer myself who works for a newspaper, I am on a strict deadline every night. My hours are from 5:00 p.m. to 12:30 p.m with an 11:00 p.m deadline. My "drop dead deadline" is 11:00 p.m. No later, and, this is how my deadline was explained to me when I first started working for the news paper:

"Gustavo, for every fifteen minutes that
you are late in delivering a job,
the newspaper looses $50,000".

So if I hold up the paper for an hour because I am late in delivering my work on time, the newspaper looses $200,000.00.
How is this possible? Because the presses are held up, trucks and truck drivers are held up and the whole production of a newspaper is being held up, meaning more money that the paper has to pay because people are standing around not doing anything waiting for one person, me to finish a job.

and,

imagine if this ever happened (which I am proud to say that in the eight years that I have been working at the paper, it has not) and I told them, hey cut me some slack, "I'm an artist".

They'll tell me, "we'll, go do your art somewhere else because you are fired".

And that's the reality that all professional artists encounter everyday.
When companies like Marvel, DC and Dark horse loose money because we artists are late and they loose readers they will think twice about using us again.

Art is art, business is business and when we loose readers, business is bad.

Blah blah blah

comics are different from newspapers, just give it up. They're nothing at all the same. I mean it's like comparing apples to sausage. I mean, if you want to compare it to something remotely in the same category, lets compare it to other forms of entertainment, like movies or music. Before you say "well movies don't run behind" that's complete bull. Star Trek and the new Harry Potter have been pushed back over 6 months because they were delayed. TV shows run behind alot. Why do you think they get reruns to fill in, because they have to kill time before they get more episodes done.

This stuff happens, so just ...let...it go

[bigshot]

well i think even if this book was 10 years late i would still go nuts just to have it, so get off of Joe's back, he has plenty of art here to get you going thru the wait!

p.s. Joe Mad for president!!!!!

[maverick1104]

Comics are a business. As a business, the people in charge should solicit books WHEN THEY ARE FINISHED. Not when they schedule them out to be finished. Problems can occur like: writer or artist can't meet deadline, the printer place burned down, among other many possible reasons. I don't care what the reason is as long as I, the person paying for the book....I, the person that in all retrospect contributes to the continuation of that company get a reasonable...um, reason. I don't care if Joe wasn't done. I'm more frustrated with Marvel for soliciting the book when it wasn't done. But as a professional business, they should know better and have more respect for the fans because when they do this....it can cause them to lose those fans.

Joe is an artist and I love the art he produces. But he took a job at Marvel, among having a family and another full-time job. That's a huge load. All props for him handling this heavy load. I respect that very much. Maybe the load was a little overwhelming. Who knows? We do know that it was scheduled to come out and it didn't come out on time. I personally feel Marvel is at fault....but IF, I repeat, IF Joe had a deadline and didn't meet it then shouldn't he be at fault somewhat too? I understand that things happens but when they do, someone should take the time and explain and give some type of answer to why. But to continue on with no explanation is just rude.

I just get tired of people saying that who cares if its late and get a life when, for me, I really don't get any comic books and when my favorite artist comes back to that medium, I get all psyched. So forgive me when I, as a fan get angry when the publishing company (MARVEL) can't at the very least give a reason to why its late or solicit it on time so it won't be late.

When people say who cares, you are basically saying,"hey, even though you are late and in a way lied to me I'm still going to give you my money." No one wants to support a bad business, right? So why do we continue to do so when a movie or comic book or whatever is late with no apology to the fans. It's just bad business. Plain and simple.

[gugesbri]

Oct 3, 2008 16:40:38 GMT -5 maverick1104 said:

Comics are a business. As a business, the people in charge should solicit books WHEN THEY ARE FINISHED. Not when they schedule them out to be finished. Problems can occur like: writer or artist can't meet deadline, the printer place burned down, among other many possible reasons. I don't care what the reason is as long as I, the person paying for the book....I, the person that in all retrospect contributes to the continuation of that company get a reasonable...um, reason. I don't care if Joe wasn't done. I'm more frustrated with Marvel for soliciting the book when it wasn't done. But as a professional business, they should know better and have more respect for the fans because when they do this....it can cause them to lose those fans.

Joe is an artist and I love the art he produces. But he took a job at Marvel, among having a family and another full-time job. That's a huge load. All props for him handling this heavy load. I respect that very much. Maybe the load was a little overwhelming. Who knows? We do know that it was scheduled to come out and it didn't come out on time. I personally feel Marvel is at fault....but IF, I repeat, IF Joe had a deadline and didn't meet it then shouldn't he be at fault somewhat too? I understand that things happens but when they do, someone should take the time and explain and give some type of answer to why. But to continue on with no explanation is just rude.

I just get tired of people saying that who cares if its late and get a life when, for me, I really don't get any comic books and when my favorite artist comes back to that medium, I get all psyched. So forgive me when I, as a fan get angry when the publishing company (MARVEL) can't at the very least give a reason to why its late or solicit it on time so it won't be late.

When people say who cares, you are basically saying,"hey, even though you are late and in a way lied to me I'm still going to give you my money." No one wants to support a bad business, right? So why do we continue to do so when a movie or comic book or whatever is late with no apology to the fans. It's just bad business. Plain and simple.

Nicely said. thanks for understand.
Gustavo Pabon

[onslaught36]

I don't think it's entirely Mad's fault. I understand that Mad is also working on other projects such as Darksiders and has a personal life too, and so the book got delayed at times (if that was the reason why). But Marvel also shouldn't say the book is coming out on this day if it's clearly not going to be ready in time. And they dont even bother updating their website. In June, the page for Ultimates 3 #4 still said "On Sale: March 12". I think they should've given more general time spans, such as saying June 2008. It also would've been better if they kept us updated. Why do we have to be kept in the dark? However, I do think that we could occupy ourselves with other things in the mean time. It was great to see Mad doing comics again so I dont mind the wait for his art.

As for the art, I have mixed views veering more towards positive. The art quality seemed to vary alot. I got the 1st issue on the 1st day, my copy was so dark that it didn't make the panels so appealing. That was fixed with the second batch of issue #1s. However, the art had a faded look and the colors looked a bit dull. I talked to Christian Lichtner about it on deviantart, and he said that he wanted to color it a different way (than what we got). The 2nd issue was better, but the colors still didn't make things stand out much. Issue 3 nailed it well in most of the panels, and since then only a few panels here and there didn't look the best.

The decision to go with a painted feeling right onto the pencils was a good idea. It gave a naturalistic feeling, one that wouldn't have been achieved had an inker been used. Mad's pencils were pretty great, although at times the panels didn't flow as well as they could have. For example, a character might have a sword in one hand but in the next panel it's in the other hand for some reason, then back to the first hand in the panel after that. *spoilers* In issue 4, Juggernaut has his arms in the air about to clobber down on Panther. But in issue 5, Panther is in his hand as he is about to strike Panther with just his right arm (I know it's minor, but in the story it would imply that Juggernaut was about to strike him with both arms, stopped, picked him up with one hand, and then was about to strike him with the other. It seems like a weird thing for Juggernaut, or anyone in a fight, to do). On the same page, Panther's clothes are ripped and tattered and his mask is practically off, but in the next panel when he is calling for the shield his clothes are normal again, then in the next panel it's tattered again. Also, I felt things did look a bit sketchy some of the time and that it could have been a bit more defined. Overall I loved it though. I think especially those 2 pages in issue 4 with Cap and Wasp were beautifully drawn and colored!

I'm very grateful for Mad's run on Ultimates 3. While the writing and dialogue could have been better (so the whole story was based on one or two pages from Ultimates Volume 2? Also, cheesy dialogue), I'm glad that we were able to experience Mad's comic work again. Now, on to the Darksiders comic!

[DaveCummings]

Oct 3, 2008 20:28:50 GMT -5 onslaught36 said:

I don't think it's entirely Mad's fault. I understand that Mad is also working on other projects such as Darksiders and has a personal life too, and so the book got delayed at times (if that was the reason why). But Marvel also shouldn't say the book is coming out on this day if it's clearly not going to be ready in time. And they dont even bother updating their website. In June, the page for Ultimates 3 #4 still said "On Sale: March 12". I think they should've given more general time spans, such as saying June 2008. It also would've been better if they kept us updated. Why do we have to be kept in the dark? However, I do think that we could occupy ourselves with other things in the mean time. It was great to see Mad doing comics again so I dont mind the wait for his art.

As for the art, I have mixed views veering more towards positive. The art quality seemed to vary alot. I got the 1st issue on the 1st day, my copy was so dark that it didn't make the panels so appealing. That was fixed with the second batch of issue #1s. However, the art had a faded look and the colors looked a bit dull. I talked to Christian Lichtner about it on deviantart, and he said that he wanted to color it a different way (than what we got). The 2nd issue was better, but the colors still didn't make things stand out much. Issue 3 nailed it well in most of the panels, and since then only a few panels here and there didn't look the best.

The decision to go with a painted feeling right onto the pencils was a good idea. It gave a naturalistic feeling, one that wouldn't have been achieved had an inker been used. Mad's pencils were pretty great, although at times the panels didn't flow as well as they could have. For example, a character might have a sword in one hand but in the next panel it's in the other hand for some reason, then back to the first hand in the panel after that. *spoilers* In issue 4, Juggernaut has his arms in the air about to clobber down on Panther. But in issue 5, Panther is in his hand as he is about to strike Panther with just his right arm (I know it's minor, but in the story it would imply that Juggernaut was about to strike him with both arms, stopped, picked him up with one hand, and then was about to strike him with the other. It seems like a weird thing for Juggernaut, or anyone in a fight, to do). On the same page, Panther's clothes are ripped and tattered and his mask is practically off, but in the next panel when he is calling for the shield his clothes are normal again, then in the next panel it's tattered again. Also, I felt things did look a bit sketchy some of the time and that it could have been a bit more defined. Overall I loved it though. I think especially those 2 pages in issue 4 with Cap and Wasp were beautifully drawn and colored!

I'm very grateful for Mad's run on Ultimates 3. While the writing and dialogue could have been better (so the whole story was based on one or two pages from Ultimates Volume 2? Also, cheesy dialogue), I'm glad that we were able to experience Mad's comic work again. Now, on to the Darksiders comic!

Well, from what I read in interviews, the December 2007 release date was what was originally intended, because Joe thought that it was long enough time to meet the deadlines. But, I think as the release date loomed for Darksiders, that ate up alot of time. It's alot like what happens with alot of the hollywood people who work in comics.

It's why when asked when the Jeph Loeb/J Scott Campbell Spider-Man book will be released, Joe Quesada said that they're waiting until it's all done until it's solicited.

I know it's not fun when a book is delayed. But, look at the bright side, it didn't face delays nearly as bad as Battle Chasers did, and it's story finished alot sooner than the earlier Ultimates.

But, at the same time, I don't think that it's solely Joe's fault. I wonder if the art technique utilized slowed things down. If Joe had an inker, like Tim Townsend, it might have helped, but also, if it was in more of a traditional style, it might have been alot quicker, because Chris' colors were a hell of alot more complicated than normal colors.

I just think it's puzzling that some people's remarks here, particularly Gustavo's towards it. Particularly earlier on, they were a lot more favorable towards the book. I mean, I've been a fan of Joe's since Deadpool, and as much as I love his work, with Ultimates, I knew that there was that chance that it was going to be delayed. So, it just didn't get to me when it did happen. I mean, to the people getting pissy about it, where have you been for the the past decade?

[gugesbri]

It's why when asked when the Jeph Loeb/J Scott Campbell Spider-Man book will be released, Joe Quesada said that they're waiting until it's all done until it's solicited.

And that's the way all mini series should be published, when the work is completed and ready to go to press.

I mean, to the people getting pissy about it, where have you been for the the past decade?

We've been watching this happening for the "last 2 decades".

I understand what you wrote bro and you made some good points, but, again, as I wrote before:

Art is art and business is business.

This industry almost imploded in the 90's.
With comics competing in an entertainment market full of competitors like the video game industry, the only way for this beautiful industry to continue to grow and stay healthy is to keep the distributors, retailers and most important, the fans happy.

Gustavo Pabon

[Sketchlogic]

Thats not the most important thing lol. If Joe isn't happy, then his fans will not be happy. If I am doing a creator owned book and I am not feeling the book at the moment (which means that if I force myself to go on, everyone suffers) and I'm feeling like something else at the moment (example: game design) then I'm heading for that with a gracious and humble apology to my fans, who I would assume would understand. Number 2, I do not get this "Joe is late constantly" mess lol. As far as I know Joe has actually never really suffered delay because he "illustrates/pencils too slowly" lol. It was always a specific reason behind it other than "I just can't keep up, sorry" as if that were the case, it would not matter 1% to me as a fan of his as I know it wouldn't to many others here. If I remember correctly he not only physically hurt himself (to the asshats who insult him without even thinking of the guys health) but he now has 2 children now, he had 1 back then, which is still a handful and on top of it all, he simply felt bummed out about the book at the time (Joe correct me if I'm wrong, or anyone else lol) Number 3 and gugesbri, I reply to you with ALL due respect but this industry seems more corporate and money hungry now than it has ever been. Sure the 90's had its bad times, but what I would give to go back to that time. As Joe even said at one point during the 90's "its a great time to be in comics right now" and it sure was from a reader/fan's perspective. this website has done such a beautiful job of keeping us in the know of Joe's life, and Joe has been d**nED gracious in posting here with the little time he does have, letting us IN on his life personally.

I thank Nathen and Joe for that and my point is, THAT right there is enough for me. Perhaps I'd be pulling my blasted teeth out if there was NO "goings on" about Joe in any way, its GREAT to check this site every now and then and bam, you get some art from Joe or Nathen lets us in on something nice, anything.

I cannot speak for you all but I honestly don't care for (and never, ever have) Joe's being delayed for whatever reason. The man is in good health, good spirits, he's happy as hell, he has his family and thats pretty much it. Its not always about his art lol. If something happens to Joe, his art, his potential delays are done. I would rather, and always will rather care for him personally, so that by him doing well, we AT LEAST have a chance to complain. Joe and Nathen keep up the EXCELLENT work and do whatever the hell you guys wish to do lol. This is Joe's/Nathen's world, and we are all simply a part of it artistically speaking anyway.

[LabSOUND]

Oct 4, 2008 2:18:14 GMT -5 Sketchlogic said:

I cannot speak for you all but I honestly don't care for (and never, ever have) Joe's being delayed for whatever reason. The man is in good health, good spirits, he's happy as hell, he has his family and thats pretty much it. Its not always about his art lol. If something happens to Joe, his art, his potential delays are done. I would rather, and always will rather care for him personally, so that by him doing well, we AT LEAST have a chance to complain. Joe and Nathen keep up the EXCELLENT work and do whatever the hell you guys wish to do lol. This is Joe's/Nathen's world, and we are all simply a part of it artistically speaking anyway.

I'm 100 % with musashinden on this. I hate to bring this up but their was alot of so called fans of Michael Turner that came down on him when his book was late. The guy had cancer for god sake and it's like they really didn't care about his health. I figured after Turner's passing people would lighten up, treat these creators with a little more respect and understand that they are human and sh!t happens and after comics they do have a life.

The only thing I agree with gugesbri is that the book shouldn't have been advertised if it wasen't done. It's really Marvel's fault anyway you look at it. Things get delayed all the time but Marvel should have known that a book like this which was only 5 issues long shouldn't have been advertise till Joe was midway on issue 5. When there's no explanation all the finger pointing goes to the artist and that's exactly what's going on here. The same thing happen to Brian Hinch on the last issue of ultimates. Everyone thought it was his fault when it was his colorist and his inker that got held up but everyone was ready to point the finger at him. Marvel needs to step up and prevent these things from happening.